Tuesday
Oct112011
Bullets from Maspero
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;)
These bullets were shown to me by relatives of the victims of the October 9 massacre at Maspero. Anyone have any insight on the type of ammunition used or the markings on the casings? Click on the pics for a larger size.
Update on October 12, 2011 at 4:47 PM by
Issandr El Amrani
Issandr El Amrani
Here is another picture of a bullet used on the evening of October 9 at Maspero — it looks unused to me, but with all you knowledgeable people around, I'd appreciate any thoughts:
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Pic by Sarah Carr (click to enlarge)
Reader Comments (27)
I have a 9mm gun, and im only a researcher, but all i can tell you is that they are similar to Afghan used caliber guns, they are bigger than 9mm guns, most of my sources come from the centre in geneva called "Small arms survey" very helpful. I'll send it and reply. My guess is they are 50 caliber machine gun bullets, from APC mounted guns
I'm especially curious about the markings on the bottom of the bullets.
Yeah I'm curious too about the markings on the bottom. We know that it's ج م ع for جمهورية مصر العربية but what do the numbers mean?
The picture appears to be of an empty cartridge casing that got a little bent up after it was fired and ejected. It looks from the picture on the left like the rim says 223, meaning this is a .223 Remington round, the same caliber used in the Utoya massacre. This is a civilian cartridge that is compatible with weapons chambered for the military 5.56x45mm NATO cartridge, the most famous of which is the M16.
What's really curious is looking at the top end of the casing, as seen in the picture on the right. The way it's tapered like that, it looks like this could have been a blank round.
Some kind of pellet round (like a shotgun shell); not a bullet.
Note the crimped opening.
I disagree that this is a shotgun shell. It looks too small to be even a .410, and it is clearly made of brass and shaped like a rifle cartridge (shotgun shells are straight cylinders). I remain of the opinion that the crimped top suggests a blank. For comparison, here are some .223 Rem blanks that someone is trying to sell: http://www.armslist.com/posts/136460/oklahoma-ammo-for-sale---223-blank-rounds
At first glance it looks like a blank round. The case is an odd shape and may have been run over by a vehicle. It definitely looks to be a NATO 5.56 round.
http://www.wideners.com/images/fulls/m200a1.jpg
Egyptian soldiers carry AK47s. Do they carry any M16 type weapons?
The round on the right is definitely a blank round, i thought maybe 5.56mm but perhaps another type. The crimped finish is a dead giveaway. Unlike normal ball ammunition which is in two parts, casing and bullet, this is just a single whole casing crimped at top which bursts after the gunpowder is ignited.
Just to inform Karim, a .5 round (12.7mm) is actually the size of a carrot, the round in these pics is way too small.
The round on the right is a blank round. When fired, the crimped tip opens up, but no projectile is fired. (The worst that particular round is going to do to anyone is leave a nasty, non-lethal powder burn if you fire it close enough.) Military units use these rounds for training. Is the round on the left the same round? If so, it appears locally made, and the Arabic numbers (77-27) probably refers to the batch of ammunition, not the caliber. I can't figure out what the letters are, but it looks like jiim-something-'ayn. Probably the initials of the manufacturer.
That's clearly a .223 blank round.
I've sent this around and not told people that the photo is from Maspero.
Despite the vicious appearance, the pinched point is usually an indication that the bullet is a blank (instead of plugging the cartridge with an actual slug, the manufacturer pinches the end shut). This is also evidenced by the seamlessness of the bullet itself-- in most live munitions (save for full jackets), where the slug meets the casing there is a distinct edge or seam. Here, you have no slug.
77 is the grain weight of gunpowder in the cartridge. If this is truly from a machine gun, I'm guessing 27 is the M27 disintegrating link designation (for the belt).
The right one looks like a blank.
Thanks for all those who responded — both photos are the same bullet, different angle.
When I was there two nights ago I was shown 4 casings, 3 were uncrimped live rounds, 1 was a crimped blank. Sallie Pische was beside me at the time and can confirm this.
@David
Did you see unfired live rounds or recently spent casings?
It is definitely a blank round... No bullet.
But someone definitely fired it. You can tell by the indentation in the circle on the bottom where the firing pin hit it. So they fired the blank, but it didn't go off. You can tell because if it had, the pointy end would have been splayed out from the gun powder exploding inside the casing. Of course, even if it went off, it's only a blank so it couldn't hurt anyone unless the muzzle was directly pressed against someone's skin.
Also you can tell because the casing appears twisted and mangled. This is a common problem with blanks... They "misfire" meaning the don't go off and then jam up the rifle and get misshapen either from the misfire itself or the manual extraction from the rifle.
But you can't tell (or at least it is very difficult to tell) whether it was a 5.56mm NATO round or 7.62mm AK-47 round because the fingers cover too much of the bullet, because it is twisted and because there is nothing of known size in the photo to measure it against.
I don't read Arabic so I have no idea what the writing says.
But a huge question is why ANYONE out there would be armed with a rifle and only blank rounds. That is insane. Going into a situation where people could be firing live ammunition, if you have a rifle but only have blanks (or ANY blanks) is either a catastrophic leadership failure, is suicidal/suicidally stupid, or is part if some really malevolent plan.
Nothing more to add to the marine, blank round, firing pin strike, misfire/stoppage. Also whomever was using it would need to have a BFA/blank firing adaptor otherwise they'd have to cock the weapon like a bolt action after every round as blanks don't create enough pressure to cycle a semiautomatic weapon without the adaptor.
The serial numbers are not NATO/US config guessing local (Egyptian) munitions factory.
Ex NZ Army
@A US Marine, the rumor was when I was in Egypt there was anything like a ratio of 1:3 or 1:5 blank to live rounds in Egyptian rifles. As the joke goes, this was to ensure that any hot-handed soldier who was inexperienced would have to go through a few rounds to live ones and by then he was sure he was shooting at someone he wanted down if he was still firing. I have no idea if this was true, and I doubt it. But it is also not unusual to see Egyptian police, even "Special Forces" police who diplomatic security detail, to carry AK rifles unloaded, or unloaded with a bayonet. Others can probably confirm that. I would guess post-revolution that practice has changed. Haha.
The photo presented shows a blank cartridge without any doubt. Despite the fact that I've never been at the army, I learned as a boy from my father and my brother identifiying cartridges if they are blank or not.
But the finding at Maspero opens a huge amount of questions I'd like to get answered soonest if possible and these are only two of them:
Did "thugs" fire blanks to produce an atmosphere of sharp shooting for getting panic under the demonstrators? Should the firing of blanks provoke answering with live rounds?
@Al Haraka
Mixing live and blank ammunition is utterly insane. Blank rounds cause more stoppages because they create more fouling and they don't create enough pressure to cycle the rifle to pick up another round meaning that an egyptian soldiers fancy assault rifle is now a bolt action rifle whenever a blank is discharged. I would really doubt that mixing of ammunition occurred, it's utterly pointless and would serve no end unless as you allude to a mere joke with no reflection on reality.
Even carrying a mix of live magazines and blank magazines is quite silly as under pressure you can't rely on a soldier making the correct choice, never mind you need to modify a rifle with a BFA to enable it to function properly with blanks. The self inflicted woulds due to loading live rounds into a rifle with a BFA over the muzzle would be a common result.
New pic is two 7,62mmx39 ball rounds, conclusion based on the case (bottom of cartridge) being "fatter" than the 5,56mm and 7,62 NATO from the GPMG. It looks like Ak47/AKM cartridge meaning Egyptian army Misir rifles.
Check the cartridge length for 39mm and you've got a perfect match for Egyptian army munitions for assault rifles and LMG's.
Have seen that new pic of the love rounds before. They are Russian style 7.62x54R. They are used in Russian sniper rifles and machine guns.
I wonder why they were found unfired. Especially since no spent cases were found with them. For me it casts doubt as to how a civilian got them. Do we know the chain of possession?
Live rounds... Damn iPad autocorrect...
And yes, the 7.62mm's in the new picture are unused, and yes that's live ammo.
Sorry 3am erroneous conclusions it can't be 7,62 39mm as it would look squat and be missing the long neck.
It looks like the russian 7,62mm x54 so either sniper rifle or medium machine gun like the PKM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR