Monday
Jan312011
The general
By 
Issandr El Amrani | #jan25 Egypt
Issandr El Amrani | #jan25 Egypt The above video was from an amazing moment when what appears to be a one-star general stood atop a tank and addressed the crowd. He told them that the country was in a dire situation, and the army had to restore calm. When pressed on whether he supported Mubarak, he told them, more or less, that this was not his mission. People are free to protest and express their opinion, and free to choose their leader.
I don't have time to translate the whole thing, so if someone wants to do so in the comments, please do so.
Reader Comments (42)
The video doesn't show him speaking!
Are you sure this is the right video? All I hear is the crowd chanting.
You need to wait a bit
Very quick translation from what I could make out:
Crowd: Down with Mubarak. Mubarak out...
Officer: Hear me ?
Crowd: yes
Officer: We haven't forgotten the country. The country is in chaos now.
Crowd: it's the police. It's the police.
Officer: I don't want to repeat slogans about how we love the country. We all know this. My name is Mohammad. We had a problem yesterday. I'm not going to tell you not to demonstrate. Do what you want, demonstrate how you want.
Crowd: (applause) Here is the Egyptian army, here is the Egyptian army!
Officer: The country from yesterday was being looted. If the government is 50 men robbing the country, now we have a lot more than that robbing the country. What's going on now is that there are no prisoners left in the country. Yesterday we found wonderful young men similar to the ones who protected the national museum. You are just as wonderful as them. Someone entered the national museum to damage it. You are the ones who need to protect the country.
Someone in crowd asks a question (not sure of the wording)
Officer: It's not my business what will happen next. You are the ones who will change things.
Crowd: (applause)
Officer: At four pm the Muhandeseen neighborhood was being robbed. We can tell things from our position that you can't. A lot of places are being robbed. We came down to protect the country.
I have two questions
1. if this coup will fail and Mubark stays in power, will this General keep his head or will he be tried on some obscure crime and sentenced to death?
2. If this coup will succeed won't this be the opportunity that the "Muslim Brothers" needed to gain power and turn Egypt into a theocracy like Iran where freedom is just a chant from the Quran?
Hi, I got your link from The Guardian UK online its been amazing following the events there I had my doubts but you people have been incredibly brave and just dont stop. It seems to all here that you will win - that you have already won. I hope that no one else is killed or hurt today its an outrage what the security police do to people in Eygpt I'm so angry about it. Mubarak is such a shit! He's not human.
Just to offer support to you and all that you are doing for Eygpt and your futures. It's just unbelievable. Please try and stay safe.
Annie from Australia (we are watching)
Wolf, you don't seem to know anything about the Muslim Brotherhood. I suggest you learn something. You could start with MERIP's articles on the Brotherhood.
Well, let me quote a few things from wikipedia
"The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state"" - end quote
Sounds pretty much like a theocracy to me.
Lets see what did it's founder had in mind (again from wikipedia)
"Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood" ... "with the credo, “Allah is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations.” -end quote
Sounds like an ultra radical theocracy to me.
So do you really want these people to govern your life?
Wolf, Hassan al-Banna died a long time ago, and political rhetoric is often different from political practice. Wikipedia is not a reliable or adequate source of information about complex and controversial political topics. Go read something by reputable academics. Again, MERIP would be a good place to start.
Here is an article which outlines the "Brotherhoods" activities to bring an Islamic law in Europe
http://www.meforum.org/687/the-muslim-brotherhoods-conquest-of-europe
Another quote from wikipedia
"The Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, founded in 1987 in Gaza, is a wing of the Brotherhood" - end quote
This one I know is true and means that the brotherhood supports terrorist groups
Here is a long article which explains why the "Brotherhood" is so dangerous
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/258419/fear-muslim-brotherhood-andrew-c-mccarthy
I read some MERIP articles, they are not convincing and seem to steer away from the most important question of all - will the Brotherhood, if they come to power in a country, impose the sharia as that countries law.
From all that I read, the answer is YES! that IS their goal. Which means that if they rise to power in Egypt, Egypt will become a Theocracy like Iran and Gaza.
Wolf, I'm not going to engage on this very long but it is worth saying that the MB of today is RADICALLY different (no pun intended) from that organization founded by al-Banna. Aside from renouncing violence they have taken steps consistent with working in and among a political milieu and have proven themselves to be quite moderate - see younger Muslim Brotherhood bloggers.
In any event, they simply don't have the support to "take over" and "turn egypt into Iran" - you simply cannot compare the two.
Wolf, Middle East Forum is a right-wing think tank run by Daniel Pipes, who is an outcast from academia. It's not reliable or impartial and is not taken seriously by most academics in Middle East Studies. MERIP is much more representative of reputable scholarship in the field.
Yes, Hamas grew out of the Brotherhood, but they're two separate organizations, and necessarily have different aims and strategies because they exist in very different contexts. No reputable academic who studies the Brotherhood thinks they have any interest in imposing a theocracy on Egypt.
It's also worth noting that the Egyptian constitution already says that sharia is the main source of legislation in Egypt. Egyptian law is a huge mess, but Egypt is not a theocracy and nobody expects it to become one, regardless of the outcome of the current political struggle.
Lets hope you guys are right, for Egypt's sake.
If this protest movement will bring to power an Islamic regime not only will it be a back step in human rights for Egypt, but it most probably will bring Egypt one step closer to a war with Israel.
War, in general is not good. It's especially not good for Egypt since Egypt failed to win the last three. A fourth defeat, after breaking a peace agreement, might have devastating affects.
We Arabs say that Egypt is 'Um Al Duniah' or in English the 'Mother of the World'. May these changes restore Egypt's position, to a world leading economic power that you were about 100 years ago. For the moment I fear that the military regime you had for so many years has transformed your population from the most educated to the least educated (in percentage terms) in the Arab world with Yemen and Solmalia. A democratic regime is great but what I am scared you elect a populist non-business friendly regime that will diabolise entrepreneurial spirit and any one who has money, which will scare foreign direct investments the county needs. You will scare your entrepreneurs. Be weary of that. The new sate should not try to create jobs, its for the private sector to do so. The state can distribute money to the poor à la Loula style, but it should not try to socilalise the country. Good luck , a Lebanese married to a half Egyptian writing from Lausanne , Switezrland. Good luck to Um al Dunieh.
http://streetsmartpolitics.com/?p=280 - Overview and Analysis of Egyptian protests.
Long Live Egypt with its pride and achievments. I hope that whoever controls EGYPT, in the very near future, will not oppress its people. Hope that we Egyptians focus on our pride and previous achivements to reach new levels higher than what Germany and Japan managed to achive. Its amazing how we Egyptians always excel outside of our DEAR BELOVED EGYPT, but can't do the same within our own borders. Egypt is MY MOTHER, but I married another country and that's were I live. I had no choice in being an Egyptian, but I love Egypt as I love my mother, I will always be greatful to her for bringing me up. SGG
For wolf:
http://www.salon.com/news/egyptian_protests/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/31/muslim_brotherhood
@plett
There is a stark contradiction between the way Wikipedia paints the rise of the "Brotherhood" and it's ambitions and the way this professor paints them.
Wikepdia paints a picture of a movement trying to create a Muslim Halifut Egypt. A movement not above assassinating a prime minister and trying to assassinate a president.
The writer of this article tries very hard to hide these facts and paint a nice picture of a socialist group fighting for human rights and prosecuted by tyrants.
The fact that the writer is trying to brighten up the reality of the first years of the "Brotherhood" makes me question all his narration.
The fact that they "specifically and repeatedly repudiate" violence, doesn't really calm me. Many organizations openly repudiate violence only to secretly support it when it betters their interest. The only thing that will remove my concerns is if they say that they will push an agenda of separating state and religion.
If I was an Egyptian, even a religious one, that would have been my agenda.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Any ignorant or malicious person can write whatever they want on Wikipedia.
Academic specialists on the Brotherhood are people who speak Arabic, who have lived in Egypt, who have spent a lot of time with members of the Brotherhood, who have a deep knowledge of their history, who read their publications, and who have observed what they do first-hand. Until you have those qualifications, you're in no position to contest what they say.
A reliable academic source on the Brotherhood is Joshua Stacher.
If you trust wikipedia more than a renowned scholar from the field, your choice.
And overall I won't dare to judge how much even a theocratic regime would be worse for the Egyptian people than a secular, western backed dictatorship. There lies some serious hypocrisy imho. After all, the people are very clear in their desires at the moment, which is precisely democratic freedoms. Not supporting a popular uprising like this today because of a vague fear about hypothetical counter-revolution in the future is lunatic. If you hold any democratic principles, you have to stick to them, not applying them where they fit your views.
@Benjamin Geer
Research shows that Wikipedia is more accurate then any other encyclopedia. Plus the information on the "Muslim Brotherhood" in Wikipedia is parallel to many other sources that I have read, just didn't bother quoting.
Here is a link to another expert on Egypt. The numbers that he quotes are REALLY concerning.
http://www.jpost.com/Features/InThespotlight/Article.aspx?id=205799
@plett
Scholars, especially in social studies, have a tendency of pushing their own agenda.
Lets take a look at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a case study. In '93 all the "Arabist" experts hailed the Oslo agreement and said that it would bring peace to the middle east. Now we know that Yasser Araft never intended on abandoning violence or fighting other extreme groups.
The so called experts were wrong and didn't fully understand the intentions or the abilities of the PLO leaders. We fear that they are too optimistic in regard of the "Muslim Brotherhood" just like they were about the PLO.
Democracy is not a religion, I support it because it's good for me. Democracy in Egypt is not necessarily good for me or any body else. If democracy in Egypt will bring to power a regime which will support Iran's nuclear ambitions, open for "reexamination" the Israel-Egyptian peace process, support Hamas, well that will turn the Middle East into a hot boiling stew of violence and destruction which will harm the whole world.
Why would any sane person support that?
Wolf, research shows that Wikipedia has serious problems. It's a lot easier for people to push their own agenda on Wikipedia, where anyone can click "edit", than in peer-reviewed scientific journals, where you actually have to know what you're talking about and face harsh criticism (from people who may have different political views) in order to get published. The higher the scientific standards, the harder it is for political agendas to distort research. Currently the highest scientific standards are found in peer-reviewed journals, where the academic specialists have to publish.
You don't seem to have any knowledge of Arabic, Egypt or Islam. Academics aren't always right, but they're a lot more likely to be right than you are.
Yea and Wikipedia would have of course been the more reliable source back then making the correct prediction, right? Don't be silly.
Sure, check out different (academic) sources, look at their background, puzzle it together, make up your mind. I am not saying anyone is holding the absolute truth, but while wikipedia is often great to quickly get an overview over a topic, especially with controversial topics you will need the background of an author to re-evaluate what is said - quite impossible in wikipedia.
As for democracy, I was talking about principles, not "religion". The west is always buzzing with promoting freedom all over the world, liberating Iraq et al. Now there is a real movement from the inside demanding right that, and people go like "uhh, but they might chose the wrong ones". Or, "it is good for me so I support it here, but if others have it I will be disadvantaged, so a dictatorship is better for them". Screw that. So be it. No sane person wants to see the middle east go up in flames, but alas, it is not like peace on earth at the moment. We do not know what will happen, but what from what I see now I am not overly concerned, but full of joy for the Egyptian people.
Nothing more to say from my side, make up your own mind.
@plett
@Benjamin Geer
So in your opinion if the "Muslim Brotherhood" get a majority in the Egyptian parliament how will the following issues be affected:
1. Women rights: head covering (in Iran women must were them), driving (in Saudia women can't drive), leaving the country without their husbands permission (both in Iran and in Saudia that is not allowed).
2. Relationship with the USA and Israel.
3. Relationship with Iran and the international embargo on Iran.
4. Shariah law (death penalty for a Muslim who converts to another religion, mutilation for stealing, death penalty for adultery)